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Talk:George Samuel Kirk, Sr.
Can anyone clarify the sourcing for the names of George Sr.'s father and brother? The only reference I noticed in "Best Destiny" to Jimmy's grandfather was that he wor his grandfather's travelling cap during his runaway escapade. No mention is made of an uncle in the book, and "Generations" doesn't name the uncle (the movie, at least. Was this in the novelization?). Were they mentioned in Diane Carey's "Final Frontier" novel (the one with George and Capt. April, not the movie novelization)?--Emperorkalan 18:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC) Also, what's the source for George Jr.'s age? I forget if "Final Frontier" says, and "Best Destiny" isn't exact on the subject, but in "Last Full Measure" the Federation Day, 2238, scenes take place on what is said to be George Jr.'s 8th birthday, which would make him born in 2330, not 2336.--Emperorkalan 18:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC) Problems with Recent Additions An anonymous user has added some things from "First Star I See Tonight", World Without End, The Janus Gate and a few other sources... Aside from the poor formatting, there are some problems. IIRC, FSIST conflicts with George's backstory as established in Final Frontier, as does Word Without End - written long before FF, and completely incompatible with it. I haven't read The Janus Gate, so I'm not sure on that score, but I know data from the other two should not be integrated like this. --TimPendragon 21:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC) The user in question was likely Stripey, who seems to have run into some trouble in registering or signing, or something. At least, Stripey signed an entry on a discussion page using that ISP. You're correct about noting the conflicts between FFIST and WWE and the Final Frontier and Best Destiny material. As for the Janus Gate material, it may be worth a discussion (either on the novel's discussion page or in Ten Forward) about where to place it: Most timelines put Best Destiny in 2249, but there (Jim) Kirk hadn't been offworld since Tarsus, but the Grex incident would have required a second outing. Stripey (or someone) has apparently "fixed" that conflict by switching their order, but that's a matter for discussion or noting the conflict. We don't completely forbid conjecture here on MB (e.g., the Fed President list), but where it exists it should be noted.--Emperorkalan 02:42, 22 January 2007 (UTC) :Then the "FFIST" data should either be put in a note at the end, or in a separate article alltogether. The WWE data should be noted as a contradiction, as should the Janus Gate stuff (was he even called George Sr in that?) --TimPendragon 02:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC) ::Yes, he was clearly the red-haired Starfleet commander in diplomatic security described in FF and BD. The main conflict is with the timing of the incident, not the nature of the character.--Emperorkalan 03:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC) :I'm also curious about the bit from Great Starship Race, what it says exactly, because in Best Destiny George says he didn't go to the academy, and Diane Carey wrote both books.--Emperorkalan 03:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC). As ever, I follow the format guidelines I've been given from you all and The Doctor help most often, but I still get frowned on. *sigh*. You can be "curious" about what I've written all you like, but the bare facts are accurate. Their conflicting natures and ultimate layout in the article at all I'll leave to you experts sarcasm meant. And yes, I did read the data in the Janus trio as being a year too much ahead of years in Best Destiny, so yes, I swapped 2248 and 2249 data around to fit better. Anyway, like I said, if the article doesn't look right just yet...it's all yours Stripey. :You might also wanted to double check the capitalization of your links, Stripey. World Without End and First Star I See Tonight do have pages. --TimPendragon 16:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC) Comma in name? Shouldn't there be a comma in his name, as in "George Samuel Kirk, Sr."? That's proper English grammar in both the US and UK. --TimPendragon 19:14, 23 November 2008 (UTC) Unnecessary separation and citation overload The article has been split into canon and non-canon, though I cannot see why as there doesn't appear to be anything from our non-canon sources that rules out his service on the Kelvin. I was going to recombine them but then got a bit stuck; that first paragraph of his history has a hell of a lot of sources. I would suggest the text needs to read: "George was born in 2202, in Riverside, Iowa on Earth's North American continent, the youngest son of Tiberius Kirk. His elder brother was James Kirk." (as the name of his father being Samuel Kirk has now been overwritten by canon) So we need a source for date-of-birth, place of birth (Starfleet Shipyard unless an early source provided that), his parentage (from the recent Star Trek) and the fact that he the youngest son and that his brother is James (from The Motion Picture novelization). That's one piece of information I don't know the source for, and four novels currently being cited for it, surely the one that originated his date of birth will suffice? --8of5 00:37, 11 June 2009 (UTC) :I prefer using "in-universe" citations like "Mayor of Riverside" or "Kelvin first officer" rather than mention "Canon" or "Non", especially since the terms sometimes include or exclude the other-- the line is blurry between the two. :There will need to be some explanations for the difference, for example the contradictory versions and universes where his date(s) of death vary. To date: :*''unnamed'' Kirk father -- Riverside's mayor, a conservative, provincial "back-to-earther" from a Bantam Books novel. :*Colonel Benjamin Kirk -- Military man, died victorious against Klingons when JT was 12, won Kirk a seat at the Academy and accepted posthumous medal -- from Gold Key Comics :*Commander George S. Kirk, Sr. -- correct canon name, security commander on starbases. disappeared when Kirk was a student, circa 2250s -- from novels of Diane Carey, reiterated in other versions, ENT novels/Janus Gate :*Chief George J. Kirk -- correct canon name, but with position and standing (as enlisted man) not consistent with canon or the other George S. Kirk version. -- from Shatner/Reeves-Stevens novels :*Canon George Kirk - inspiration to join Starfleet, lived til Kirk's 2260s captaincy. Was XO on Kelvin and died instead in alternate timeline. :Unfortunately, every version conflicts somewhat. The Carey version was reiterated the most often in noncanon, and only has the one problem -- his unexplained appearance being too early compared to Spock's description of his longevity in the new film. All the rest have character traits that don't match the canon version. -- Captain MKB 02:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC) I entirely agree on the use of in-universe differentials. From the sounds of it there is a notable concentration of information for the Starfleet officer version, which is reasonably consistent with the movie version, so I'd say our bias should be towards that version, with a note towards the end explaining the discrepancy between that version not being around as late as Spock describes in the film. If the other versions all have different names we could always have them as separate pages, and just make sure they are suitably inter-linked - perhaps have this name have a background section explaining the variations, including the unnamed one.--8of5 02:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC) Death Canonically, George Kirk lived to see his son take command of the Enterprise, according to Spock in last year's film. I'm moving the reference to his death in 2249 to a note, because the earlier story has been overridden by the film. --Columbia clipper 20:41, July 24, 2010 (UTC) :It had his death mentioned offhandedly in an epilogue section, as a 'missing and presumed dead' type of situation. I would gather that George Kirk's going missing should remain in the article, with the clarification that he was in fact still alive years later, meaning he was found. This progression does not betray either source, with the exception that Jim Kirk for some reason still believed his father was dead in Final Frontier being the only contradiction remaining. -- Captain MKB 21:14, July 24, 2010 (UTC) ::I'll update the article to include that. --Columbia clipper 21:21, July 24, 2010 (UTC)